Archive of BMW Motorrad Club Cape (2006 - 2019)

Make an offer!!!!!!!!!

 

Heya Geoff

Having planned a view local trips i know what goes into the planning and arranging everything.

Cannot imagine trying to do 6 or 8 different venues .

I know you have a no Refund policy as often happens people sign up and even pay and then on 99 they change thier minds and pull out and it call really mess with everything.

But i feel for Poor Tian in this case ,its not like he was Hooligan and went out and trashed his bike of the weekend from stupidity.

He Had an Accident and it was not his Fault...To Loose R 5500 ontop of that is really harsh.

Surely there can be another way to do this ?

Wayne 

It has nothing to do with what you have said Wayne if you pull out there is no refund, period.

The only way to assist him is if somebody takes his place!

Arrange a few of these Tours and you will quickly change your query.

As much as I would love to refund him.

If you want to discuss this type of issue further please call me but to illustrate sort of what I mean check out the following :

 

Club Namibia Tour : 30+ people booked.

You do all your costings and bookings on 30+ people.

Call for payment - you get 8 people

You are a businessman man Wayne, do the sums.

Club Wild Coast Tour 2011 : Fully booked.

Make all the bookings do the costings etc.

Call for confirmation from the group - 6 people confirm. Where are the costings now!!??

Remember also that you get a rate based on a number of guests. Change the number's and the rate changes. In the case of the Namibia Tour the guests were, due to reduced numbers, forced to fork out an extra X amount of money (more than 10% of the original quoted price). So the guys pulling out have a direct impact on those still going. Remember also we get NO REFUND for cancellations for the above reason.

The back up vehicle and crew costs remain the same!

So : The rule is you pull out you forfeit!

Sounds tough and it is but it has to be so.

 

 

Hi Geoff

Thank you for your reply and like i siad in my Post I know this really messes with things big time.

I know the cost and expense that goes into these trips.

But the Fact is he did not pull out ,he was taken out by a Car.

This was out of his control.

Anyway i dont know the guy from a bar of soap and if his happy to loose his R 5500 then thats cool.

I just believe that the no refund policy should not apply in this case.

Im sure it will be a great trip.

Wishing you guys a Safe Journey there and back.

Wayne

 

I've just gone through the exercise of setting up the Namibia trip so I now understand what goes into these tours.

When someone drops out, the cost goes up.  Once deposits are paid, bookings are firmed up and that money is paid to the lodges/hotels/booking agents as their deposit and then things start getting expensive.  If someone drops out now, either the organiser has to fork out of his own pocket, or everyone else has to contribute, or someone loses their deposit.

In the same way that commercial organisations like airlines don't refund deposits, the club made a policy (after some painful lessons) that payments cannot be refunded.

It is tough, but at least the poor organiser isn't bankrupted, on top of all the other stress that goes with putting these trips together.

 

Just take his place on this awesome trip.

I'm sure the burden of riding all the way to the EC and back to help someone will be worthwhile

 

p.s Yes, I know you have other plans......

Guess I must have my say (I had kept quiet as I am a new member)

 

I was on the waiting list for Namibia and had to wait, not make my own plans etc in the hope of getting on the trip. I was shocked at how many people pulled out without any consequence. In my opinion the club should introduce a 10% non-refundable deposit, on putting your name down, to stop people booking up events and then pulling out.

 

 

Well I haven't wanted to weigh in here because obviously I have some skin in this game, but I've been asked to express an opinion and here it is.

I have been on enough trips to know the rule: if you don't/can't go then you lose your fee - either you you lose nothing if it's a popular trip and there's a waiting list (i.e. the person replacing you comes in at full price); or you lost it all if no-one replaces you, or you lose a portion depending on what somebody's willing to offer you to take your place.

Clearly, people putting their names down (with no financial commitment) and then pulling out after a lot of planning has been done is a real problem (viz Namibia), but that is a different discussion to the topic under this particular thread, and I would suggest can be dealt with more effectively than it has been to date. For example, requiring a non-refundable % deposit to even get confirmed on the list is one way that will make people think twice about pulling out.

Again, that kind of behaviour I think should be considered and treated quite differently to what has happened to me, or others who, for any number of personal reasons have signed up in good faith, paid up - and then find themselves unable to go. Obviously, if someone has put down the money then they are committed to going. Equating them who then suffer misfortune to people who make vague commitments and who fall away as soon as deposits are called for, is a logical fallacy.

Can I suggest the following: when someone falls out due to personal reasons, having paid up already, then the trip shoud be re-costed and the unlucky person be held liable for perhaps his share of the shared costs as well as for accommodation made in his name that could not be cancelled, etc, and then refunded the balance (if any). This would be fair to all: the Club does not lose out, the other entrants do not lose out by having their share of the costs increase, and the unlucky person does not lose out completely.

For example: on this particular trip I can't imagine that any of the accommodation venues are going to charge any more per person if 11 instead of 12 people come. But if one fewer person is coming then the shared trip cost portions will go up e.g. for the backup vehicle etc. - this share I do not mind forfeiting to save the other guys from having to cough up more (as on the Namibia trip mentioned). But if I simply forfeit my FULL fee paid, then presumably Geoff is not still going to pay for 12 pax accommodation, only for 11. So where does the remaining money go? Into the Club's coffers? Does the Club need this money? We the paid up menbers ARE the Club and this perhaps needs to be discussed.

I think an important consideration here is that I'm not just being wishy-washy. Geoff will attest I've put my money where my mouth is for Club trips, certainly more than most, having spent literally tens of thousands on trips over the past two years alone that I've been riding - and the Club will certainly see more of my money soon enough (sharpening my teeth for the Transkei Extreme!!), so this almost "punitive" aspect to losing out one's fee feels wrong. Sure, let's look at the finances - if the argument is that the Club/organiser loses money, then quantify it and let the person who lucked out stand good for the actual losses.

My 2c worth.

RESPONSE FROM COMMITTEE MEMBER AND OFFROAD RIDE CAPTAIN :ANDYMAN

You do forfeit your money if you pull out for whatever reason.

Adrian's comments ring true, show commitment by paying a deposit.

The club committee made a resolution that all future rides attract a non-re-fundable deposit at time of FIRM booking.

After attracting attention to a ride a call of interested candidates is made.

This is followed by a call for firm booking- nominally to those who showed interest, then to open forum if not filled.

At this stage a deposit is called for.  Then full payment

Nevertheless, the club operates on the principle of pay and do not pull out or you forfeit..

This has been so ever since rides were organised.

The GS Challenge, ABBBG, Bike fest are all the same.  (Also SAA, Nation wide, RCI, etc)

The only difference with the BMWMCCC is it is a smaller community so no-shows have a closer more personal impact because it happens to good friends.

Tiaan is not alone, several have lost all in similar sad events, but most found a replacement.

Rusty's bike was not ready for the last ride and he lost out.

It's hard and it's sore but the game is bigger than the player. and if you all want ride captains and want organised rides to continue, then stick to the rules.

You cannot legislate for the infinite amount of very plausible reasons for pulling out try make concessions by case.

This is a great ride, so someone needs to make Tiaan a realistic offer to take his place.

You will not be disappointed.

While I feel for Boesman, he has to pull out of the trip for a legitimate and unfortunate incident. The accident has greater implications and costs than a broken bone. Suddenly there are medical costs, inconveniences, plans that need to be changed, etc.

However where does one draw the line? A medical reason like a broken limb? a family crisis? an urgent meeting with the big boss from overseas? World Cup semi-finals? Forgotten Anniversary?

At the point where people have already paid in full, you're no longer just expressing an interest in attending, you've committed. If you break that commitment, and expect a refund, other people will unfairly be burdened with the cost. And that just doesn't seem right.

It seems there needs to be certain milestones put in place. For example:

10% deposit when expressing interest in the planning stage.

full payment x amount of weeks before the trip, part of which is refundable, up until 2 weeks before the trip.

No refund should be expected if you pull out within 2 weeks of the departure date.

As the webmaster and the person who sends out the club emails, I can tell you that Geoff goes to great lengths to try to find a substitute for people who have to withdraw from a trip for reasons beyond their control.  It breaks our collective heart when one of our members suffers misfortune in any form.

The rule is that once payment is made for a trip, it is non-refundable.  This is the fairest and most economical way of doing it.  Here's why:

• If we try to do a 'best effort' refund as suggested by Tian, we open ourselves to arguments along the lines of "why did Tian get R2000 back and all I got was R200?".  The amount we can refund (if any) depends on many factors, including the nature of the deals struck, the trip itself, and the ability of the organizer.  Since these trips are run purely on a cost recovery basis, there is no margin.  I would suggest that the amount that could be refunded would typically be such a low proportion of the total fee that it is not worth the hassle to the organizer, or even worth the money to the crestfallen participant, and certainly not worth the arguments and disagreements it will provoke amongst our members (witness this thread).
• Not to mention the issue alluded to in a previous post:  what exactly is 'circumstances beyond your control'?  Where do you draw the line?  Bike breakdown (was it your own neglect perhaps)?  Accident (your fault perhaps)?  Wife giving birth (you should have thought about this when you booked)?
• As a committee we have noticed that there are the same people who frequently have 'incidents', and others who almost always pull out for various reasons, and others who seem to be always complaining or 'making suggestions'.  If we allowed refunds we would end up always giving refunds to some individuals and just doing more work for less benefit to the club as a whole.

In no way am I implying that Tian is in any way responsible for his accident.  But this is life - accidents happen and you suffer loss.  The club is not an insurance company.  In any case, Tian is not suffering additional expense - the trip is paid for - he is just not able to do it.

Now, the real purpose of the discussion is to find someone who can take Tian's place - at a discount.  So how about it - this could be the bargain of the year for some lucky fellow, and end up being a bonus for Tian also.

Presumably these are club rides, so all money goes through the audited club treasury. The organiser cannot be liable for losses (and presumably doesn't profit either).

On the broader subject: As with any travel commitments, unforseen calamities that cause withdrawal, would normally be covered by the participant's own insurance. The airline and hotel can't be expected to give you a refund if you crash your car on the way to the airport.

 

I still believe that Tian's Circumstances are different and Warrant some Leniency.

To compare him to Rusty is just Rediculous Andy.

Thats half the problem there are guys out there trashing there bikes and themselves then they want to pull.....Well tough Luck 

By all means stick it to them as this was there on Fault they themselves Caused the acccident.

Here Tian was taken out by a Car ....he had no choince in the matter.

For every rule there can be an exception and I think an exception needs to be made here.

AT least put it to the members to vote and discuss.....ON THIS POINT ONLY.

IN all other cases you have an influence on wether or not you will make the ride.

Well thats my opinion and that of a number of members i have discussed it with.

 

 

Wayne, we thank you for your input.  Neither Tian, nor Rusty, is the first person to lose out by this rule.  Just because you think Rusty deserved what he lost, does not make it so and also does not convince all of us that it is so.

Under no circumstances can we start being selective about whom we apply the rule to.  Perhaps you can feel a bit better if you take Tian's place on the trip and offer him fair compensation.  Or you and those whom you say feel the same way you do can all chip in to ease Tian's suffering.  As a club we have no mandate to do so.

Perhaps you could assist by getting all the details from Geoff and seeing how many expenses you can recoup from the various hotels on the trip?  There is nothing stopping you, Tian, or anyone else from actually helping out physically, instead of chirping about how we need to do this or that.

If you wish to change this rule, consider joining the committee and participate in the running of the club.  As a committee we work hard for the club, but I know that the people who organize these tours will stop the moment it stops being fun for them - and the amount of flak they are getting from you is making it not fun anymore.

IMO, public discussions involving money matters seldom result in a satisfactory resolution.

This particular situation is really between the tour organiser (Geoff) and the tour participant (Tian).

The facts as I understand them (and yes, I have been on two tours which Geoff organised) are as follows:

- if you cannot make the tour (irrespective of the reason) you either find someone to take your spot or you forfeit your payment

- tour participants are aware of this condition and accept it of their own free will

- this principle has been applied without exception for all tours to date (as far as I know)

If, as it appears from this thread, that there are a number of club members that feel strongly that there should be some leniency under "special" circumstances then I suggest the following:

- put your name forward to serve as a club committee member and help to change these principles to reflect the member's wishes for future tours

- alternatively formally submit your ideas to the committee for discussion/evaluation/vote

Wayne, if you have not yet, I suggest that you contact Geoff directly to discuss the issue further?

I am loath to enter this debate because I am a very new member and do not grasp all of the dynamics at play - but I think that a couple of aspects need to be kept in mind.

 In every club there are doers (I can't think of a better word at the moment) who keep the club going. They usually make up a small percentage of the membership and become responsible for all the organising that is required.

 The danger is that when the hassle factor exceeds the satisfaction they receive from the organising, the doers stop. And then, unless there are others prepared to step in, the club will die. I have experienced this before.

The club is particularly vibrant at present – there are lots of things happening. All of this takes a lot of time and effort from the doers and we need to show our appreciation to them. It is imperative that we do not cause the them to become gatvol.

I am not saying that we should not suggest improvement or change but we should consider the impact that the suggestion has on the hassle factor.

 

Thanks Geoff very well put and i agree wholly with that.

Charles "   Just because you think Rusty deserved what he lost, does not make it so and also does not convince all of us that it is so " Those are your words my friend not MINE !!!

With a few weeks to go Im sure Tian may like to investigate the the bookings to see if he can save some money ,but that he can discuss with Geoff if he wants to.

My point was that this was an exceptional circumstance and it warrented a discussion. At the end of the day we are a Club By the members for the members and the MEMBERS come first as we are the club.

We appreciate the Committe and the Job you DO ...believe me i wouldnt want 2 do it. Been there got the T_Shirt .  

 

Thanks

 

Wayne

I have left this debate to run it's course and not "pulled" it from the site as there are sometimes people who are aggrieved by it just as we as organisers are also "aggrieved" by people that cancel/withdraw for whatever reason on Tours that are already booked, paid for and ready to go!

Your differing views are appreciated but and it is a big but..........the Club rule/policy is that if you withdraw you forfeit the money. Plain and simple no exceptions!

The official Club policy :

If you are not happy with this rule you have a few options :

1) Join the committee and try to change and or improve the Club and it's rule/s

or

2) Don't sign up for Club Tours

or

3) Move to greener pastures where you can find a better run Club and more efficient Tours that refund you if you withdraw from a Tour.

However, by far the majority abide by the rules and we offer fantastic Tours that are well supported.

I am not going to go into the schlepp of arranging Tours and the mayhem caused by people that pull out and what the effects are on other Tour participants  if we have to compensate those that pull out.

Suffice to say what we do, works. For this reason it is in place and was brought about exactly because of people pulling out and the overall impact this has on the group and more so the organiser who is doing the trip for the members.........!!

I consider this matter now closed and if anybody wants to discuss it further please contact me directly.

 (Hey Charles, why are there no thumbs up smilies?)

Tian has been replaced!

I was contemplating of taking his position but as you know - you snooze you lose

Well done in replacing him.

 

 

Thats Great news

It was a good topic for discussion

 

Well done Tian

I support the committee. rules are made, for whatever reason, to be upheld by the normal person. Let's abide by them and not find exceptions to the rule, we have enough of this in our normal day to day life. Well done to the committee, you guys and girls do a great job, thank you.    

Tiaan may you recovery be quick and most of all comfortable,  If this discussion did nothing else it did bring you the replacement, lekker.

Leon.....you can still join us there is still space.

 

I agree Cheesy ,but lets also remember rules are not Cast in Stone.

We are a Club for our members and sometimes things need to be discussed untill an amicable solution can be found.

Fortunately a replacement was found for this very unfortunate situation Tian found himself in.

Im sure it will be a Great Trip

We are a biking club, not a debating society.  The rules are made specifically so that we do not need to discuss and debate every single little thing.  Committee meetings are where rules are discussed and decided.

Tian's case was not an exception.  The rule specifically states that if you withdraw from a trip for whatever reason, you forfeit your monies.  It does not make provision for 'force majeur', 'mothers-in-law surprise visits' or any other events beyond your control.  No discussion was needed.

 

Good Subject heading Charles

BUT I DISAGREE !!!!

And as a Fully Paid MEMBER of our club I have a RIGHT to bring into discussion a subject that I feel needs to be discussed.

TRUST me many members Felt the SAME , but people ar afriad to make waves.

How Ridiculous to compare Tain been taken out by a Car ( Could have been KILLED) to mother in laws visit !!! Well Done Buddy.

Let's JUST Drop the SUBJECT untill it can be brought to the FLOOR.

Have a Stunning Day

Ride Safe

Wayne

 

I propose an amendment to the rule to make it even more clear:

Trip fees are not refundable, and no discussion will be entered into.

Yes, as a member of the club you can raise concerns and issues, and as a committee we welcome feedback.  But within reason.  Sure we can change the rule if there is a majority vote on the matter - but to what?  Who pays when someone doesn't come?  What circumstances can be called 'beyond your control'?

The rule is there so that we can ride, not debate every single little thing all the time.

To avoid further discussion on this matter I will, as outgoing Chairman, propose to the new encumbent that the first item on the new committee's agenda is to discuss this point.(Should refunds be considered at all or in specific instances/circumstances)

Once discussed by the new committee and a decision is taken they can advise members of the outcome accordingly.

As mentioned in a previous posting if a member/members are unhappy with that decision taken it is their decision if they want to continue as Club members.

 

 

 

Errrr, please don't forget to mention the "Thumbs up" emotion that we don't have available to us

Thanks, all, for the good wishes, and thanks to Wimpie Ackermann from Bredasdorp for taking my place - enjoy the ride.  I'm still eina at times, but not so bad that I couldn't test-ride an HP2 this morning!

How about you create a new thread inviting suggestions as to how the rules might be amended, with a clear description of the parameters within which suggestions are invited. Describe the issue that's come up, restate the current pertinent rules, list some suggestions for changes already mooted, highlight pitfalls and ambiguities ... and then throw the floor open. This will allow the committee to draw on the broad range of experience and insight from the club members.

---

If it's suggestion time: how about a polling mechanism for the forum which will allow the committee to quickly gauge the club members' sentiment? These wouldn't be formal votes, so no need to verify who's a paid-up member or not.

And what happened to the "mark all as read" action that used to live in each forum? I can often tell just from the thread headings in e.g. the For Sale forum that nothing is relevant to me. Then it would be useful to just mark everything as Read so that next time I can quickly see what's new. There used to be a function like this - could you reinstate it?

(Post has been edited : Boesman)

While we do not have all the answers, we are the ones currently charged with the responsibility of the running of this club, and we are the ones with the experience of running this club.

I question the implied notion that we do not cater to the needs of the members.  If we are doing such a misdirected job then why is the club the biggest it's ever been, the rides are oversubscribed, and there is a higher level of club activity than ever before?

Here's a suggestion for why:  the committee makes good and sustainable decisions that cater for the needs of the majority, and not the wants of a few vocal members.  We are here to serve the club.

So Tian and Wayne - the new committee comes in next week.  How about starting a thread with a list of suggested changes?  Let the new committee put it to the vote if required.

As for website changes/improvements:  I will do them when I get a chance and feel like it.  First, I have to feed my own family.

you all have a chance to talk this out once a month.

If you cannot be there in person ask a stalwart to voice your cause.

The club has a meeting each month.

At this meeting, eyeball to eyeball discussion takes place which is far better than pen vs. pen from the anonymous safety behind a pc screen.

 

In my short presence in the club I have seen this- some just normal, some hot, some serious and some ludicrous debates on running the club, events, outings, fees etc.

The matters- like the infamous VAT on Accident claims debate were aired publicly and we ended up with SME's (subject matter experts) from Tracetec, oils, insurances, Club SA, and BMW Financial Services come and explain from their side.

We have seen club discussion and this is what made me stay- we've always had this opportunity to challenge what we do not like.

The meek have been able to find a bold one to petition their cause on their behalf so even their voices were heard.

I was impressed and asked myself "What can I do for this great club?"

so I asked someone to nominate me for the committee and went around rounding up votes and found a niche to serve the club.

It has been rewarding except for a few jousts that were not necessary- but were not bothersome.

 

Do you know what the majority wants?

I think you have no idea how many calls and suggestions Geoff and co have to field everyday. There is no doubt they understand what the majority of the club wants more than the rest of us.

 

Now I'm not sure about this point:

but do committees (any committee, not just this one) usually need to run  everythign past members? Does every decision need to be put to a vote? Surely if members want to change something, they need to get on the committee, or lobby a committee member?

 

Sorry, guys, I spend my days behind a computer screen and can fling words like arrows - sometimes without realising the full effect. But rest assured that I harbour nothing but respect and appreciation for what the committee does for the club.

Charles, I don't know how you manage to feed your family AND chaperone this very busy site - respect and thanks. I've taken your suggestion and started a new thread inviting suggestions for the incoming committee.

I agree that the club meetings are a better venue for discussing issues than this forum - too much room for misunderstanding. Here we are just words, and words are too limited. We're all doing this for fun, after all!

 

Well said Tian!

Sanity prevails...............!

+1

 

I believe we are in for one action packed meeting this week.

I sincerly hope we can get to the bottom of the finances and the other points on the agenda.

Look forward to it

 

 

 

I never realized there was an issue with the finances.  Is there?

 

There is .....I'm sure it will all become clear over the coming weeks.

 

This is my second year with the club and find it more and more ridiculous that we are fighting over the R120 we pay each year. I make my money back within the first two trips. after the third trip it is a bonus for me. What does tour guides charge these days that plan everything for you. I even laugh at these trips when I get ask for R30 to R50 for the backup vehicle. Go find out how much it cost to tow you home. At least for my R50 I can still continue with the group and enjoy the rest of the trip. I belonged to a few organizations where I paid more than R120 a month and I had to belong to them. One even had a clubhouse that gave me less than this club. I had no choice in belonging to them due to where I stayed so you where handed over if they did not receive their money. Does this club hand you over for arrear subs. What I am trying to say is leave the politics and let us enjoy what we have now. If you still unhappy then leave. You have that choice. Please let me know if this Tuesday is going to be dragged out. I will rather stay at home if so. At every meeting I laugh my ass off and would prefer that environment than listen to what has happened to my R120

1Lee

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT we are talking about.

SO instead of jumping on the band wagon and looking silly ,rather get the facts First.

No one is bitching about the R 120 subs.

You may enjoy the meeting and continue to laugh your ass off.

 

 

Ok, I think enough has beem said online about this, so I humbly suggest, we take it offline and leave it for Tuesday. 

Also...Don't forget the piping hot soup's!! (Powers that be...can I please have creamy mushroom soup??!! hahaha)

Best for the rainy week ahead!  

To the soup makers may I ask for brown whole wheat buttered rolls.