Archive of BMW Motorrad Club Cape (2006 - 2019)

Daantjie, VERY interesting topic. 1) If your bike is under garantee and serviced by the dealer, FIND OUT what oil they use. The boxer engine needs a few drops of oil from time to time - ONLY top-up with the SAME oil as the dealer (that services your bike) uses. The dealers do not all use the same oil !! 2) Once out of garantee some will service the bike themselves. I would also like to (once out of warantee) - BUT I am not sure how to get past the "service" message on the display. (Any ideas??) Sorry back to the topic - what oil to use once out of garantee .... Presonally I would stick with the oil that the dealer used. I do not like "mixing" oils. Many would go for synthetics - if it was needed wouldend BM use it ?? I did not say "it is not good", I asked if it is "needed". High performance engines "need" synthetic oils - Boxer engines are NOT STRESSED. Thus the longer service intervals and long life. The "K" engines, well I would love to hear what is needed here (my guess would be synthetic). 3) Syntheitcs and addatives ARE BAD DURING THE FIRST COUPLE OF THOUSAND KILOMETER !!! Engine parts must "bed in", thus many manufacturers use "poor quality" (relatively speaking) oil to start of with. Additives or synthetic oils will cause the engine parts to "glaze" - causing increase oil consumption and bad performance. 4) With a motorcycle there is also the issue of a "dry or wet" clutch. On a car the clutch runs dry, thus the oil is designed for the "engine only". Many motorcycles have "wet" clutches, meaning that the clutch is exposed to (runs in) the engine oil. Certain oils/additives will lead to the clutch slipping !! Confirm with your dealer - BEFORE you change the oil or add "stuff" to the oil.

Additives to oil is never good, it only serves to mess up the recipe the oil company has developed, tested and guarentees. Synthetic oil definitely only benefits on highly stressed engines, as the oil's resistance to flow is decreased slower than that of mineral oils. Synthetic oils may never be mixed with any other oil either synthetic or mineral, as there might be unwanted chemical reactions under certain unknown circumstances. In the owners manuel you will find an indication of the viscosity requirement of your vehicle's engine, something like for example 20w50 or 15w40. Adhere to this is closely as possible. Also try and find the API specification prescribed for your engine, as this gives an indication of the development level of the oil. Exessive top ups or blackening of oil is an indication to use a higher quality lubricant, or to drain the oil more regularly, or to ride slower!! Important to notice that engine oil must be changed an absolute minimum of every 12 months regardless of distance travelled in that period. This is due to the forming of acids during the combustion process that is dumped in the oil.

That adds value to the whole annual service debate we had recently - thanks Daantjie :)

Daantjie how come you are so knowledgeable about oils if you dont mind me asking. I RIDE THEREFORE I AM!

Freak, Thanks for the question. I do not want to be misunderstood that I pose as a Tribologist. I work for a company that distribute lubricants, and as such had training as well as extensive exposure to the subject.

I'm confused, I was also under the impression that oil needed to be changed annually, however we have a bmw car and the manafacturer claims only every 2 years, we don't do a lot of mileage in a car (less than 8000km per year) What would you suggest? 2006 R1200S 2005 R1100S BCR 2005 F650GS(Cindy) Motorcycle Rider Training http://www.twowheels.co.za

Maybe it's the lower rev ranges that allow for a lesser amount of acid dumping?

BMW het goeie engins

Just as a matter of interest, what oil has been recommended for your respective bikes? When I took my bike for her 1000k service, shane told me to use Total 5000 20W50... and to keep away from synthetic oils.

Max, I would strongly disagree with allowing a vehicle's oil to stand for 24 months, especially if you do very little mileage. Shaded ask about low rev's, worst scenario is cars and bikes that are used for 10 to 20 min drives with ample time to cool down in between, that really allows for acids to break down the additives of the oil. Long distance driving that allow the oil to heat up properly creates the opportunity for acid water to evaporate rather than stay in the sump. Interesting to know that on average the combustion of 1 litre of fuel creates very close to 1 litre of acid water. This acid water can be seen running out of the exhaust of an engine that has not yet warmed up properly. Jeremy, if I am not mistaken the 650 single prefer a 15w40. The boxer however prescribes a 20w50. It will serve you well to go through the owners manual to sort this out. Using a 20w50 instead of a 15w40 will not harm your bikes engine, but the "thicker" oil will provide higher cranking resistance which can increase fuel consumption and hamper performance.

Daantjie, Ive got the new 650gs twin, and ja.. my owners manual recommends 20W50.

Interesting thread Daantjie, please keep it going,thanks!

A fitter and turner once told me that the Afrikaans for viscosity is ; taaiflooibaarheid (spelling is probably wrong). Now my mom is Afrikaans and when I speak it you can't tell that I am a 'soutie', BUT that word still CRACKS ME UP EVERYTIME! :) Oh yes, that and knormoer! (choke) :) :) :) Frank

Almost there! It's "taaivloeibaarheid" (taai = sticky, and, vloei-baar-heid = fluidity). And, "knormoer" is a starter-motor. Then there is also a "skopmoer", I kid you not, as in kickstarter!!! Cheers!

I just LOVE Afrikaans! En dan praat ons nie eers van die skel woorde nie!

You also find kids doing a "vloermoer" or tantrum. I think it describes it perfectly.

Hi Jeremy, Neat, so the applicable viscosity grade for your bike is established. Now read further until you find the API or ACEA specification. This will be written in the same chapter where you found the applicable viscosity grade. Whenever you buy oil, make sure that the API or ACEA specification complies with that of the manufacturer of your engine.

Thanks for a very interesting discussion. A question - I'm using my GSA to commute to work. It is about 7km from home to work. I accept that the boxer engin does not properly warms up in that distance. Sometimes I do take the 'long way home'. However, it is not always possible. Do you guys recommend that I change my oil more often because of this shorter distances? The ride is the destination.

Abel, I would seriously consider changing the oil quicker than 10 000km, especially if the long, multi hour runs are few and long between. Regular, as in weekly, longer runs should take care of the quality of the oil. Always make sure that you use a good quality product adhering to the required specs.

It does make for pleasant change to have an interesting informative subject of discussion on the forum. First the C o C and now oils. I have a basic knowledge but would prefer to be better informed. Daantjie may I impose on your knowledge and ask for a more detailed discussion on oils lets say from the well to the end product. How about Product A, 20 W 50 and product B, 20 W 50 are they the same, here I am talking about recognised brands. How about semi synthetic, what is the basic composition here. When using Synthetic and a top up is necessary can I add normal 20/50? The differences between oils, engine, gearbox and Rear axle. What does all this mean to the layman, S A E, API, SJ, SL and CF? Can I use Petrol formulated oil in my diesel and how about the super/turbo chargers? I have a 1966 BMW and the oil specified is S A E 30, what do I use here? How about the different greases, in the automotive sense of course. Would you be prepared to give the club a brief evening chat on the subject. Ignore opinions, heed facts. Feet on the pegs, always.

Cheesy, Answering all of these is quite a mouthfull and will really stress my typing abilities. As the topic seems to attract the attention of quite a number of people, I wouldnt mind chatting with interested people at a workshop meeting. I live in Worcester but do spend time on your side of the mountain as well, my office is in Strand. We could sometime meet for a cup of coffee, maybe somewhere out in the Karoo with a fire going and some wors on the coals. Just let me know!!!

Daantjie, Do you have more of those sugestions, sounds good to me. I note that part of the text is missing however the gist is there. I have also sent you a P.M. Ignore opinions, heed facts. Feet on the pegs, always.

Daantjie here is how understand it (PLEASE correct if needed) The need to change oil "at least" annually is due to the acid build up AND the fact that oil absorbs moisture - NOW, engine oil can "boil off" the water in a long run (as you pointed out), but brake fluid can not. Since it attracts moisture and the moisture stays in the system it "pits" metals surfaces - many of us have seen slave cylinders when they start leaking due to the pitting. However it is "cheap" to re-sleave these and fit new seals, NOT SO CHEAP to "repair" an ABS break booster (sounds like the dealers only replace ...) I have also heard of other manufactures stipulating 30 000 km or 2 year service intervals - not sure how they get past the moisture / acid situation. Frankly an oil change is CHEAP, just not worth taking a chance on it. Cheezy, regarding your question of oil A versus oil B. Daantjie did refer to the "API" index. Atlantic used Motul 3000 20W50 on the boxers, with an API "SG" rating. The "S" refers to "spark", as in a petrol engine. You can also get "C" for compression, as in diesel engines. The last letter is purely from A to Z, Where A was the first (bad) oils, the better the oil (various fancy test applies here) the higher the letter used. For example "Castrol GTX" has a "SG" rating, while GTX High Milage has a "SL" rating. "L" being MUCH better than "G". Maybe Daantjie can confirm what the highest available letter is at this point in time. Daantjie does this system also apply to synthetic oils? So Cheezy when you have two oils with similar viscosity ratings (20W50) have a look at the API rating, the higher the second letter the better it is supposed to be. BUT, now many mechanics are getting all excited. MANY mechanics believe the Castrol GTX causes "build up" on the inside of an engine. You will find those that LOVE a brand, be-it TOTAL or BP or .... So find a brand, check the specs (within that brand) and do not mix your oils. I know that the dealers DOES NOT use the same oil, just proving that there are different good options available. Remember BMW does not specify oil "A", it specifies the viscosity and API rating. Now for a bit more "useable" general info on oils and BOXERS. USE THE CENTER STAND! My 1100 RT used about 1 liter of oil per 10 000 km, when I parked using the side stand (space problem in the garage). When I started using the centre stand the oil consuption DRASTICALLY lowered. The reason is purely that with the boxer a small quantity of oil runs into the left hand pod when parked on the side stand, when you start the engine this is burnt off. Parking on the centre stand reduces this tendancy. Apparantly the 1200 engines are not prone to this problem - once bitten twice shy ... Daantjie now to put you on the spot. Most vehicles have a specified oil change interval, but those that may be used off road often recommend shorter intervals if the vehicle is used off road regularly. What does the BMW garantee stipulate for GS bikes - and what would you recommend as a "safe" solution for those that spend most of their miles off the tar?

Hi Padlangs, Quite right, a proper engine oil does have the ability to “cook” of the water and neutralize the acids left behind, up to a point. When the braking system heats up due to excessive braking you may reach a point where the water that are diluted in the brake fluid starts steaming, forming pockets of steam inside your system, and you are stuck with a spongy brake when you really need stopping power. I must admit that I’m not exactly sure how the ABS system will deal with such a situation, but will research and post. When manufacturers stipulate this kind of service intervals they normally have Europe and America in mind with extremely high quality fuel. Emition control in the first world countries do not allow high sulphur and other acid forming additives in their fuels. The OEM carries the risk of long service intervals, but we will have to see if these engines will be able to achieve high mileage over and above the 100 000km? they are guaranteed for. On the comparison of oils there is a few points to bear in mind. Although a SL rating is a lot newer than SG, I will not recommend for instance that cheesy put a SL rating in his 1966 Boxer. He might experience increased oil consumption with no other benefit, due mainly to the fact that SL oils were developed with a very specific generation engines in mind. The materials used to build the 1966 Boxer will differ from those used for the new 1200. Point I am trying to make, newer does not automatically indicate superior quality in all instances. Yes, the API rating does apply to synthetic oils as well, and you might be surprised at finding synthetic oils with only a very old API rating like SF or SG. Oil unfortunately is not part of an exact science, and there are no absolutes here. “Horses for courses.” I would rather research the manufacturer and supplier in order to choose the best brand. Within the brand and supplier of choice I will look for advice, service and backup. The how of checking oil is extremely important. For some unknown reason we in South Africa believe that oil must always be exactly on maximum. Not necessary. As long as the oil level are indicated between minimum and maximum you are save. You might even find a lowered consumption in this way. Unfortunately I am not an expert on the BMW guarantee. My 1150GSA spends 80% off road, is serviced every 10 000km by a good friend of mine, and the service always include a new airfilter. I bought this bike with 10 000km on the clock, it has now just over 37 000km on, I don’t need to add oil in between services, I use a mineral based 20w50 with an SL CI-4 rating.

Padlangs welcome back to the forum. To be scientific, as most of the better heavy duty/machine operators are inclined to be,they do a silica test. I cannot for the life of me recall what the permissable figures are but there is a (I seem to recall Wearcheck in KZN are big into this) specification out on this, maybe Daantjie can enlighten me on this. BUT as you will no doubt know it is not only the silica that causes engine wear but many of the other contaminants as well. How about sulphuric (sulfuric)acid and carbon? Jean recently bought a new Polo and she was strongly advised that the oil must be changed at 15K or once per year!! Jean also only does about6 k's to work and the same return. Think of the condensation build up in the oil, YEAK! On the GS I do prefer to change the oil every 5K, reason being that the sump is fairly small so the oil is turned over more frequently plus the motor is aircooled and generally runs hotter. This makes sense to me if to no one else, besides I do not keep my bikes that long so am I preserving the motor for some one else at my expense? I am a nice Guy. Peter O take note!! Ignore opinions, heed facts. Feet on the pegs, always.

Daantjie you just touched on another interesting point - oil level. The 1200 RT has a software function where you get an on board "tick" showing the oil level is "OK" when you stop. I was using this and was SHOCKED to see the sightglass firtually empty when I washed the biked. So if you are "fixated" on the sight glass do not trust the "OK tick". Daantjie then you also refer to the fact that oils are designed (and rated) with Europe and America in mind. You do know that our average temperature is about 5 degrees higher than theirs. This also means our engins run "slightly" hotter and work "harder" - further reducing the life expectancy of the oil as compared to similar use milage in the northen hemisphere. The accuracy of this statement is probably the topic for some serious research .... This also begs the question if the viscosity ratings should be adjusted for our warmer climate .... PLEASE stay with the BMW recommendations, I am just toying with some "applied fluid principles" here. I should point out I have been "exposed to some info" on the topic, but I am NOT an expert !!

René, soliciting your "Nice Guy" favours on an open forum like this could get you into trouble with the morals watchdog! My late father-in-law was involved in an experiment with the SA Railways where they ran a number of trucks for a hundreds of thousands of Km, some with no oil change and some with only a filter change, and compared them with the fleet of trucks that were serviced normally. The total Km ran to a million but I can't remember the details of how many trucks were involved. The outcome was that the trucks that had only the filters changed showed no adverse effects when compared with those that had the scheduled oil change. The trucks that had no oil change eventually gave problems with the oil changing to sludge. Shows the importance of good filters. ''If you can dream it you can do it!''

Peter for many years the "Department of Post and Telecommunication" (later Telkom) had a policy that all vehicles had an oil and filter change every 10 000 PLUS a filter change at every 5 000. These vehicles had a HARD life, between hard work and abuse - never heard of any that had any "oil related" problems though.

Hey Padlangs, That Tick is to do with oil pressure (I think) When your oil runs too low on an RT you will get a on your display. Ask me I rode al the way back from Plett trying to figure out what this insignificant symbol was. No red exclaimamtion mark just the which came on and off intermittently.Went to Hamman and they explained to me that I needed to put oil in. Andy1200 Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly!!!

When all else fails read the instruction manual. Ignore opinions, heed facts. Feet on the pegs, always.

Now you tell me..... :wink: Andy1200 Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly!!!

I've had a look at my 2008 R1200GS manual and was surprised to find the following re: oil. Oil grades: API classification SF or better or ACEA classification A2 or better. Viscosity classes: SAE 5 W-30 SAE 10 W-40 SAE 15 W-40 SAE 20 W-40 SAE 5 W-50 SAE 10 W-50 SF - this is a VERY low specification dating from 1980 odd. A2 - a >10 year old low quality spec. Seems like these technical specs never got updated when later manuals were written! BMW recommends not using synthetic oils for the first 10,000km. This makes sense - it is good practice to allow the engine ‘bed in’. BMW recommends Castrol - hmm something to do with F1 sponsorship maybe? http://www.le-international.com/uploads/documents/051_Current%20API-SAE%... for more details on SAE API classifications. A few comments from my brother-in-law - chemical engineer & MD of oil additive company follow below. "From the requirements above it looks like the engine does not have a appetite for a high tech oil. The specs are low. SF is about the lowest spec still on the market! You would do well however to select the visco grade carefully. Roughly the 1st number is the thickness when the oil is cold. You want it to be nice and thin so the oil gets around your engine as quick as possible when it’s cold. A LOT of wear happens in this short period. 5 or 10 would be my preference here . The last number indicates the viscosity when the oil is hot (not really but it’s a good way to think of it) - the higher the number the better as it holds it’s film thickness at high temperatures. Real important when you want to give it a short blast and then slow down 40 (or even 50) would be my pref here. Some like a 5w40 or 10w40 would be my pref. The only way to get this is with a non mineral . If you tried to this will all mineral the ‘light oil components’ would boil off quickly and you would have a 20w40 in no time. The only way for the oil to ‘stay in grade’ is to use better quality base oil – the marketing term is synthetics. Nobody bothers to sell a really low spec “synthetic” – typical is SL (additive treat = say 10%) so the spec will always be well exceeded. So if I had the pleasure of riding a expensive bike I would choose a good visco range oil as above (largely ignoring the spec) from a reputable supplier happy in the fact the small incremental cost is well spent." So, does anyone know which grade oil is used by the local dealers?.

Hi Tony, All the detail can be found in the Owners Manuel, and it actually pays to read the manuel. Myself own 1150GSA, havent got a book for 1200, but you wil find that different viscosities are specified in relation to different ambient temperatures. The first number of the Viscosity grade is an indication of the viscosity of the oil at -18 degree celcius. The other end is at 100 degr C. The viscosity index VI is a better indicator of the quality of the oil, unfortunately not published on the can. The VI gives an indication of the rate at which the specific lubricants resistance to flow is lowered. The spec of the oil is important. Newer development of lubricants has been influenced by the development of diesel fuel, electronic engine management and emission control. This is why the newer numbers is not an indication of a better lubricant in all instances, the best spec is the one specified by the OEM(Original Equipment Manufacturer). I refer again to an earlier quote; Get yourself a distributor who are willing to talk to you and who represents a brand with a track record. There your lubricant needs will be sattisfied optimally.

Hi Daantjie I agree that the owner's manual should be the source of technical detail. My point is that it seems somewhat strange that the oil recommended for an engine designed post 2000 has already been discontinued in most countries. I know the manual states API SF or better. However this represents is a very large spectrum of different oil grades. API SF dates back to 1980 and API SM has been around since 2004. I quess what I'm really saying is that I expected a much more specific recommendation from BMW for a 2008 engine. Frankly I'm disappointed by the "outdated" oil specs that are included in the owner's manual. I also agree that doing some research and speaking to your dealer's technicians is the way to go - i.e. choice based on knowledge. The cost of a good (suitable) quality oil is insignificant over the life of an engine.

One of the dealers use Total and another use Castrol. Not sure what the third use. Just to illustrate that "brand names" are a highly debateble issue. I asked what my dealer use and that is what I use to top-up. As for the "SF" classification. Remember that the boxer angines are NOT stressed !! This why an "old" spec is "good enough". The Castrol product which the one dealer use has a "SG" rating - and they are willing to garantee the bike with this oil - good enough for me. Cheezy would you "read the manual" and tell us if the boxer has a wet or dry clutch ?? This has a MAJOR impact on the oil used. A "very good" oil will lead to a wet clutch slipping ... Tony how would I know if the Castrol product is "mineral" or "non-mineral"? Been too focused on the grade and viscosity to look out for "other" stuff.

Padlangs, Synthetic oil will definitely be distinguised by the manufacturer. There will be an indication on the can saying Synthetic. The price will also indicate, this can be double or more than your mineral oil. The definition says that for a manufacturer to call an oil synthetic, the base oil must have been altered in some way. Now this leaves open for a lot of interpretation! Hydrocrack oils is the new name in Europe and developing in South Africa as well, it is a product similar to synthetic but a cheaper process. In our terms you can say the base oil has been "washed" completely clean. The Boxer engine sports a dry clutch. The whole story about wet clutches has changed in recent years in the sense that the materials of which the newer clutches are made can handle higher spec oils. Super Bike Solutions in the Strand buy high spec mineral and synthetic oils from our company, and never have a problem with compatibality. When a clutch do slip, they repair the clutch and the problem is gone. As Padlangs said, if the Boxer engine are happy with that spec oil, it is a plus. You must remember that the basic design of the boxer has not changed significantly. As for speaking to your dealers technician for guidance on lubricants? I actually refered to a Lubricants Consultant. Technicians and Mechanics in general do not have time to study development and diferences in oils. It is not their job to advise people on different oils. Stressing the point in the previous paragraph, for the main brand we distribute here in the Western Cape we work with more than 300 products, and for this brand there are more than 9000 products worldwide!! Luckily I do not work Internationally.