Archive of BMW Motorrad Club Cape (2006 - 2019)

To add to this:  the mantra about weight on the outside footpeg is a lie and useless.  The fact is you lean the bike by countersteering.

And the little trick at training where they get a motorbike tyre and have you push it from the inside or the outside is a con.  They "prove" by deceit that the tyre doesn't slip when your weight is on the outside of the tyre lean.  But the angle of forces your arm can apply is quite different when you are pushing the tyre on the outside vs from underneath on the inside.  It is a crock.

Look here, when you have your arm under the tyre, it is at angle almost parallel to the ground.  From this angle you cannot push down much, and can only push horizontally.  So the wheel slips as it has no traction.

In the next photograph, the testee's arm is almost vertical.  From this position it is hard to apply a horizontal force to the tyre, and you end up pushing it down into the ground (giving it more traction).

The fact is that the tyre on a bike is held in place by the axle and the rim, and whether your weight is on the outside or inside or on the seat does not affect the net vertical and horizontal force between the tyre and the ground.  Other factors do affect it, but not whether your left or right foot is supporting you at that moment.

Very interesting post Andy.  I've also recently been thinking about this and have come to a conclusion that agrees with what both you and Charles say.  I think that there may be a basic misunderstanding regarding the 'weight on the outside peg' thing.  Although I find that at very slow speeds, such as when navigating cones, the weight on the outside peg does apply.

However at normal riding speeds I've found that a better way for me to think of the process is the following; weight the inside peg first, this together with the minute amount of countersteering gets the bike leaning into the turn.  Then by bringing the opposite knee up and forward on the side of the tank, whilst keeping one's foot on the peg, helps one to maintain the correct balance of the bike, with the added advantage of one's weight shifting a bit forward, aiding traction of the front wheel.

One could think of the inside leg as being a pivot for the turn.  What I've found with this understanding is that there is more weight on the inside peg than what I previously though was necessary.  Not sure if I've explained this very well but I would be interested in hearing thoughts from other, more accomplished riders.

Well described Andre.  Thing is, you end up on the outside footpeg because the bike is leaning under you.  It has very little to do with balance, even at slow speed.

If I were completely doubled-over with my bum out as far as possible, with both feet on the outside peg, I would only be able to balance the bike in a lean of 10cm.  This is much less than I achieve with less acrobatics and just using the steering, brakes and throttle.

I am waiting for JP Hamman to comment :)

He has copies of the Keith Code - Twist of the wrist DVD which covers counter steering and advocates it as the best way to steer.

Hi David,

Keep in mind it is not me being clever or accomplished Rider Keith Code who is regarded as possibly the Best OnRoad Instructor in the World proved beyound Doubt that the only way to make a Two Wheel (includes your Pedal Bike) vehicle turn is counter Steering.Andy explains it very well because what happens when you Countersteer the Bike Leans and you need to be tuned in to your Bike and Lean with it.In other words the Bike leans you over and not you the Bike.You must become one with your Bike.

Safe Riding out Their !!

PS If you Fix the Steering on a Bike so that it cannot turn(which is what Keith Code Did) and then try and get it to to go around a corner by leaning even if you put your whole body weight on the side you wish to turn to you will most probably get a Maximum of 10 Degrees variation and then end up where you dont want to be!!

I said it with a smiley - I bought the DVD and have lent it out to colleagues who ride bikes for their education

I like the line.

|The bike leans you, not the ote=her way round".

This was par tof my revelation.

Andre, when negotiating difficult terrain doing technical riding, I use my inner foot to stamp the bike into te turn.

I find by  putting bis on the inner peg the bike jilts to that side. I can weave in and out easily by doing this.

However, it is more the action of my outer arm pulling on the bars (without me realising it) that result sin the turn.

Time n again, yesterday I played with this and it all comes together.

Yes.  The only way to turn is by counter-steering, unless you are a similar weight to your bike. (Andy, what did you just confess to above?)

On a light bike, you can force it to lean, and then the steering will automatically turn inwards towards the lean.

Nice discussion and it makes sense! my son has been learning to stunt for the last couple of months. So the forces at play works maybe differently when he is on his back wheel at walking pace, standing on the back. going i a straight line is a fairly straight forward affair but he is in the process of doing circles. Now the forces at play is way different and confusing! We park off at the Velodrome on Saturday afternoons. If you see a old kawa on it's backwheel going VERY SLOWLY (that's the skill level part) come say hello!

Google Twist of the wrist. It's all there.

Jacques

 Jacques, as for Twist tof the wrist, its great and it really helps us understand the art of riding.

However, this is all while sitting n a superbike. Yeah the principle is the same, exactly the same.

BUT

I am standing and I am not pushing away on the left bar to steer left.

I am just riding and the bike just goes into the corner that my eyes took a screen shot of just s few seconds ago. Now I am riding, standing and the bike just goes where it is supposed to go. 

And this is where the big revelation came that STANDING, you are NOT PUSHING the inner bar to go into the turn, but tugging, or drawing on the outer bar.

Principle is the same, the result is the same.

But it is pure poetry in motion.

When you wear the bike and become part of the bike and you soar like an eagle on a lovely coastal roads like the Clarence drive from Gordons Bay to Kleinmond, it is real orgasmic bliss!!

The fruity smells of the ocean, the scents of the fynbos, the wind in your face, the huge big sky vistas,

Poetry in motion.

Thanks Andyman.

Every little advice for me is so much helpful. Thanks for your always good advice. I have noted.

Jacques

UPDATE AFTER MANY RIDES TO TEST THE  THEORY

So why do none of the courses mention this about standing up.

When I am siting I counter steer by pushing the inner bar away.

When standing I put ever so small pull on the the outer bar.

The flow into corners, curves and out of them is really so smooth and satisfying.

Riding, standing, in technical terrain, if I want to jink left then right, I stamp on the peg  on the side I want to turn.

I can jink quickly this way and that around obstacles by this technique.

I would like to add to all the good advice given.

Standing up and moving your body weight to the outer footpeg when cornering is for me one of the "fundamental" things that must be done.

Moving you weight at the same time more to the front - "on the front wheel so to speak" is not often spoken about.

Try it and see if it works for you...

Regards

Jaco, this is exactly 100% for negotiating technical terrain and/at slow speeds.

For high speed- 60kph tp 120kph it is not even a consideration.

at these speeds I hold the neutral standing position. and just that minute haul on the outer bar is plenty nuance to put the bike on the new glide path and trajectory into the curve.

No shifting of weight, no anything, just look where you want to go and let your natural haul on the outer bar do the rest.

For someone following it is not even noticeable that you changed at all.

Bill n I did the Cederburg run last Thursday and I was negotiating Mitchells pass - both times, up on the pegs and enjoying this relatively new discovery. And same for the run up from and down to the Bainskloof, 90 to 110 up on the pegs playing and frolicking like a 32 year old in heat. 

Speeds above 120-130 are just sheer stupid as the wind resistance is high and  and you end up hanging on both bars- which negates any benefit of standing because you are now firmly bolting the handle bars to the pegs via a stiff body contesting the wind resistance.

Try follow me here.

Above 120-130, you are not standing for fun or balance or any other reason other than testosterone- and then you should not be on a bike and please, nowhere near me, irrespective of what life insurance you may have.

Again, I know lots of bold bikers,

lots of old bikers, I still have to find and old bold biker.

And if you ever catch me standing at over 130kph, please give me a moerse snot klap where it will hurt most.

Andy, I understand what you are saying.

I am referring to gravel roads specifically.

I believe there is a fair share of "bike specific" ergonomics and character that needs to be considered. I did spend many miles on a GS. It is the best open road (tar or gravel) tourer available. Stable as a steam train.

I  tend to analyse things to death.. and came to the conclusion that on the GS (GSA?)the weight distribution , planted front wheel due to the telelever suspension and overall short bike length it is not that important to get more weight from the rider on the front when doing fast, short corners on dirt roads.

On the other hand, the HP2 with normal front forks which provides more feedback (read :ask more input from rider) plus long rake angle and "lifely" engine that tends to through out the back wheel easily requires more weight on the front - similar to what is needed on normal enduro type bikes. I need to be "on the front" to keep up a "nice decent" pace on any kind of dirt road.

In hindsight - I think I am confusing the GS riders  and that is not my intention.

All the best

I hope to ride soon with you guys again -

ps. When is the next Atlantis sand "practise"

Jaco Marais

I've watched this thread with interest and remember being "beaten up" by a vocal lady on an offroad course, for what I said about needing to put your weight on the outside peg.  She was right!  You can't corner just by weighting the outside peg, you have to steer into the corner first.  The question is are you prepared to slide and if not, when do you adjust your weight to limit the slide.

As with most things related to riding a motorcycle, there is no single "silver bullet" solution for all situations, other than you need to move around on the bike to help it and to guide it.

With cornering, and other riding skills, as riders learn a new technique it becomes an epiphany!  The danger is that you discard previous learnings, that work perfectly well in a different situation.

The clip that I've attached as a link is by Quinn Cody who has won the Baja 4 times and races in the Dakar ... so he is far better qualified to give an opinion than I.  Have a look at what he says and does and keep it in mind ... and PRACTICE! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYo0gWXYrRw

Here's another demo.  Slightly different situation.  In this case they first get the corner going and then want to stop it so they don't slide out so instead of weighting the inside, they are weighting the outside:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwS6_f03R2Q

Hope this gives some food for thought.

Again, they are confusing the physics.  What they are saying is that you should keep your body more upright when there is less traction, to prevent the back from breaking traction.  The amount of downward pressure on the tyre is exactly the same no matter where you are on the bike ito inside or outside footpeg.

However, if you are more upright it affects the angle of your arms on the bars, forces the bike to lean more, and changes the geometry of your legs.  When power-sliding on sand, with the back wheel stepping out, you can control it by "putting more weight on the outside peg".  However, in reality you are just  pushing it back into line using pressure on the handlebars - i.e you are actually changing the steering and your feedback.

However, it is a useful training technique to have people think that it is their weight on the outside doing the job.  I don't deny that it works - it just doesn't work for the reasons given.  I get annoyed when people try to explain the physics of it all wrong.

Yes, it is just like the centre of gravity thing when you stand up.

That's why I posted the videos.  A demo to people who are not scientists, or engineers (and even some of us who are), has more explanatory value if we can't grasp the physics.

Thanks for the input Charles.  Some people work with lists, others with pictures - when one doesn't work, the other might.

As our revered Chairman might say ... "I've used up my words - now watch this :-D ".

The Quinn Cody video is excellent, Pete. The slow-mo allows one to see exactly what he's doing with various bits of his body and clearly shows the amount of counter-steer used in the corner.

The power slide is another important skill that I would like to acquire.  Any plans to include this in club training courses in the near future?

Hi Andre

Teaching people to powerslide is risky.  There is always a chance of high-siding.  I know of a Country Trax course where they finished early and the delegates asked to be taught to powerslide.  The instructors declined on the basis that the course was successful and nobody had gotten hurt so far and they were not prepared to risk it.

I found a patch of slippery grass at the end of the M3 and used to practice there.  Also, it is useful to learn on a dirtbike where you have more control and less bulky bike to damage.  You can also do it at Atlantis.  I am going to run a Sand Faeries day there next winter.

Thanks for the reply, Charles.  Yes, the risk of a high side is why I've not tried this yet on my bike.  For me, it's an essential skill if riding off-road, so I will have to find some way of safely learning it.  I would be very interested in doing your Sand Faeries day.

Not sure how essential it is to know how to power slide when riding off road.

It may be fun to do but certainly not an essential part of off road riding.

Maybe my limited experience excludes me from making this comment but I have never needed to power slide in a corner and I get to go around them quite quickly. If your sliding you are going too fast or accelerating to harshly or you are merely showing that you can in fact do it.

Sliding = loss of traction although you maintain contact with the ground

But then who am I to comment as I NEVER apply weight to the outside peg when cornering either fast or slowly.

I will get back in my box now!

Before I do..........go buy yourself a plastic bike and have heaps of fun sliding the bike through the corners for no apparent reason at all other than it is fantastic fun!

Sorry for the Hi-Jack Andy

As I said, ' For me, it's an essential skill if riding off-road." I didn't say that I thought it essential for everybody.  We can all make up our own minds regarding our individual safety and what skills we think we need to have.

Being that I'm just an ordinary guy and not a riding god, I understand that I could make mistakes, such as unexpectedly approaching a sharp corner too fast.  Then I want to know how to do a power slide, in order to negotiate the corner safely.  I wish I could afford a second smaller bike.

Found some photos that show what I mean about the "weigh the outside footpeg" lie.  They are in this comment.

Circular reference Charles

Whatever,

The fact remains that ther eis few nicer moments than cornering on agile bike you are comfortable with.

I just returned from a 10 day trip to Europe, strapped my trolley bag and laptop bag to the bike and rode out the airport.

Suddenly it all came back and I was unable to prevent myself meerkatting of to Somerset west, like an excited schoolboy.

I realised why I topped aging at 35. It was the bikes, nothing else.

The simple joys you get from wearing your bike and feeling it respond tov ery nuance and the sheer joy and exhilaration of riding was enough to give me more than 4 bars in performance for when I got home!

I've been browsing through the forum and came across this thread.  Interesting opinions... 

When riding very slowly there is an element of "counter balancing" necessary to keep the bike from falling over - achieved by putting more weight on the outside peg.  Moving weight to the outside will also introduce a little bit of lean towards the inside (Newton's third law), but given the weight difference between the bike and the rider etc the effect will be minimal.  At higher speeds the amount of lean angle introduced by moving weight to the outside will approximate zero (even on a relatively light bike) - due to the large gyroscopic and centrifugal forces that also come into play.  Counter steering is therefore always the most effective way to get the bike to lean in.

The reason why weight must be moved to the outside peg when going around a corner is primarily to increase traction and to be in a better position to control a potential rear wheel slide.

This is actually not true.  You are partially correct in saying that the traction is determined by the downward forces on the wheels, but there are more forces at play than simple downward gravitation.  The following diagram highlights the key forces at play:

As you can see from this diagram the total downward forces on the wheels are a combination of the simple, downward gravitational force - which only depends on the total weight of the bike and rider and not the position of the rider as you correctly pointed out - AND the moments around the center of gravity.  The later force increases as you move more weight towards the outside (same side as the contact patch with the road relative to the CoG) and decreases when you move weight to the inside. Hence you do gain more traction by moving more weight further to the outside of the bike - so it isn't a lie... 

Yay, someone who can think.

Ah, the lovely moments diagram.  All very nice, and clearly the sum of all the moments must be 0 or the bike will tip or rotate.  However, the formula for traction/friction is the vertical force on the ground at the contact patch, times the area times the coefficient of friction between the tyres and the ground.

Now, if you think about it, none of those things are in your control (unless you go on a diet - but your future lack of weight is no  use to you in the middle of a sharp turn).  This means that the amount of friction/traction available to you is beyond your control - unless you do the hopping on the back wheel thing that  trials riders do to momentarily increase the downward force on the ground.

What you do control is the horizontal component of the force on the ground (the thing that is turning the bike).  This you control via the sharpness of the turn and your speed (i.e. the centripetal force).

Now Dirk, you cannot have it both ways.  If you take the combined CoG of bike and rider, then where the rider is attached to the bike (i.e. which footpeg) has already been resolved.  You cannot now also conjure up moments based on where he is attached.

So, you might say, let's keep the CoG of bike and rider separate.  You will find that the outcome will be the same - the moment you introduce via pressure on the footpeg will be balanced by some other moment due to the centripetal force on the rider or the handlebars or whatever.

I agree that "being on top" by standing on the outside footpeg is useful in cornering, but it does not increase traction.

I have also just run this by a 4th year civils student who is coming top of his class, and he agrees with my logic.

Stay tuned for my debunking of the myth about opening your legs when riding sand...

Thanks Dirk, 

I'm sure it si correct and will excite Charles to go  study CoG and your argument and come back with an argument.

And you all,       all you'all can continue to argue it out.

However, It all changes nothing with me,

I still get a moerse horing riding my bike through sweeping corners, standing up using ever so subtle pulls on the outer bar to fly the bike into and out of a corner.

Seen as I will not ever get a chance to fly a Spitfire, this is the next closest and next best thing.

And I'm happy.

Apologies for the hijack, Andy.  My post is not a response to your original post 

Charles, in the interest of full disclosure... before my initial post I also "phoned a friend" to confirm that body position - on a moving bike - does have an effect on traction.  He is much more qualified than I am to understand and explain the physics behind it and also warned met that this is neither simple nor intuitive to understand.  

Ultimately this is a Dynamics subject - a subject that some people spend years qualifying themselves in.  It is not necessary to reinvent the wheel here... can we agree to settle for the opinion of qualified experts in dynamics?  The only reasonable alternative is to spend years studying complex dynamics so we can be on equal grounds with the experts... and I'd much rather spend the time riding my bike 

Hey Dirk, no apologies required, I  was just saying, I need no explanation for why it is fun,

It just is.

Charles loves the debates, you can challenge him on tyres, CoG and especially why one stands.

Me, 

I'm just a simple lald that loves to ride.

And when I'm on my own, on my bike, in my mind I am Douglas legless Bader, or Johnny Johnson or Sailor Malan, or Bomb Finney or horse Sweeney or Ray Connell- just another Spitfire fighter pilot who loves to fly..... because flying is free and fun .

Having swooped and pitched an r olled along with the ebst of them in a Harvard, the GS is near as damnit the next best thing.

the  most fun you can have with your clothes on.