Archive of BMW Motorrad Club Cape (2006 - 2019)

who would stop if they are not in uniform? would it not be considered entrapment? i am all for it, if done within the legal framework. my two cents worth

Hi Mike the plain clothes won't stop you, apparently they radio ahead and full uniformed officers then stop you with the plain clothes behind you. Keep your feet on the pegs, and your hat on - Safe riding to all

Gotcha, i presume all violations with the exception of speed unless, the vehicles are fitted with laser cams? but having said that, speed has to be from a static point and also an authorized position.

You can always invoke the 'reckless driving' charge if the speed is obviously excessive and dangerous. I am encouraged to see this initiative. Perhaps they should also run an awards programme for motorists - along the lines of being noticed by these secret observers for good driving, and winning a prize or award or public recognition (or lotto money). Could get a lot of people being good drivers in the hopes of winning something... Website Administrator [http://honeybadger.net Honey Badger IT Services]

i am all for it, as long as it does not just become a money making game. use the funds to promote driver/ rider education in schooling already or as in the demerit system, one should be compelled to undergo driver retraining

Saw a biker given a ticket this morning just past Canal walk coming into town. Occifer in blue leather jacket. Car is a maroon bmw 3 series...

Or was it the other way round?

I have seen the mobile units, they drive white golf GTI's, no police logo's only small thin blue lights in the window as well as in the radiator grill. the officers that drive the cars are in full gear, ie vest, armed ect. they also have normal number plates not the special plates with a B on the end making them hard to spot. I for one am glad that the enforcent agencies are being proactice in trying to make the roads a better/ safer place.

Have a look at the latest fines and demerit points [http://bmwmotorcycleclubcape.co.za/traffic-laws-and-fines here] Website Administrator [http://honeybadger.net Honey Badger IT Services]

I wont pull over especially at night if the guys don't have full uniform on. The criminals will use this as a hijacking ploy!! Andy1200 Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly!!!

Of course, its a money making game. If the traffic dept were determined to make our streets safer, they need to be doing it visibly, not undercover. I think this scheme sucks.

read the article... the ghosties will not pull you over.. http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=&art_id=vn2009070923090... I say good on them, at least they trying another tactic. Regards, Corné

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. I don't think there's anything to worry about if you're obeying the law. It seems that it's the dangerous drivers they are after, and their approach seems logical, so I'm for it: "Motorists tend to only obey traffic laws when a traffic officer is in the vicinity. We intend to change this mindset by deploying 'invisible' law enforcement through the Ghost Squad," said JP Smith, mayoral committee member for safety and security. Heathcliff Thomas, head of Traffic Services in Cape Town, said if the traffic police wanted to establish high visibility, 10 000 uniformed traffic officers would have been needed. "So we decided, let's rather box smart. We want to establish omnipresence," Thomas said. ''If you can dream it you can do it!''

Cloud, you make me worried. Now it's two of my friends who don't believe in hidden traffic policing... I am all for it. Those who obey the law have nothing to fear. Those who claim more visible policing will keep them in line are liars: regularly I come across cars who drive at 80!!! in a 100km zone down the blue route, until they pass the speed camera at Ladies Mile, then they accelerate to 140!!! :jawdrop: :cross: Website Administrator [http://honeybadger.net Honey Badger IT Services]

I agree with Pete, and am all for this, it would be great if our roads were calmer. Ps. Charles I hope that makes you feel better. Just one thing: what speed did Mr Jackson, sorry Badger, do along the Blue Route the day he passed me, that was just prior to his speedo op!!!:-)

Nothing good can come from hidden policing. What's next... a gestapo type unit? The traffic dept. should be concentrating on road safety and education, not trying to fill their coffers. Even simply fining an offender is not good enough... repeat offenders should have to attend some sort of road safety courses, or have their licenses suspended. I'm gueesing this ghost squad could entrap people. You see a fast bike coming up behind you - you may be tempted to outrun it. Of if there is an unmarked car driving up your bum you may try and put some distance between you and it, and suddenly they call their cronies cause you're speeding.

The way our traffic is at the moment, some Gestapo action would be useful and welcome. If your strategy for dealing with a car up your bum involves speeding perhaps a fine is in order? Who says they will entrap you anyway? Isn't it up to the courts to decide? Amazing how the minute the police take some hopefully useful action, the libertarians shout 'Gestapo, SS, unfair, entrapment'. The innocent have nothing to fear. I can see how bikers might be scared of hidden policing - we often break the law in small ways just to ensure our safety. But then, if the ghost squad is effective, we will have less need to worry so much about our safety and will be able to ride legally more easily and safely. It cuts both ways. When Julie is out on the bike, I would rather be in a draconian traffic police state than what we have now. Website Administrator [http://honeybadger.net Honey Badger IT Services]

Speak for yourself. Nothing hidden can be good. People should not have to fear the traffic dept. Visible policing works - and since we don't have much of it, our streets are dangerous. Too many cops sleeping in bushes and not enough patrolling. More cameras (visible not hidden) would also be a good idea. The very idea of a Ghost Squad is ridiculous. Who is going to police them?

If our society was not so fscked up then visible policing would work. But the reality is that as soon as there are no cops visible people revert to their usual behaviour. So, to stop bad driving you would need to have cops everywhere, all-the-time. Since we cannot achieve that, plain-clothes policing is the next-best policy. You never know when you are not being watched, so you need to drive properly all the time. Yes, it must not degenerate into a law unto itself, and it must not be for money-gathering. Done properly, it can be good. Website Administrator [http://honeybadger.net Honey Badger IT Services]

And thats where it all falls apart. We can be pretty sure it's all about money-gathering and not public safety. Done properly? Ha! You're not in New Zealand yet my friend.

WHO WATCHES THE WATCHMEN!!! :P :P :P

That means you wouldn't be allowed on the roads at all. ;)

visible policing with courts that enforce said penalties can and do work in other countries, we are no different in that regard. i do believe that the so called Ghost crews need an oversight team to monitor. As others have said, penalties with consequences that are enforced ie driver ed...would work. I say this not as a speedfreak, but as a weekend rider, and yes do break rules on occasions.

Who watches the watchmens' watchmen? Who watches the watchmens' watchmens' watchmen? ... ;-) Isn't there some bird of prey that does that - and swoops down on criminals even though it currently has no staff, no offices, no investigations, but is claiming credit for every bit of ordinary policework going on? Website Administrator [http://honeybadger.net Honey Badger IT Services]

you are so right there Charles. I think it's just difficult to accept that one has to go to such lengths to get to some semblance of sanity on the roads, and then do you really think it's going to change or do anything in S.A? i seriously doubt it!

Precisely. Take care of the lawless taxi situation - and you've solved half the problems already. Once they've been brought under control - policing shouldn't be a problem. There is no call for this cloak-and-dagger approach. Seriously? What good are 4 undercover bikes? They can't make an arrest. All they can do is interrupt their donut-eating buddies (who should be on patrol anyway). Its an extra resource/expense that could be put to far better use.

Folks in actual fact this is actually nothing new in the policing world. In fact the ghost squads were in operation many years ago here in Cape Town before. It was interestingly enough a brilliant success. Now the fact that people are against this because of corruption etc etc is a viable reason. However take traditional police work in every country. Plain clothes detectives are all around, Spooks, and informers are all abundent. Spy's do exist undercover agents really do go deep into gang's and warlord worlds. So why not adopt the same tactics in the world of disrespecting traffic offenders? Hey you see a blue light or a marked van, you immediately are aware and concentrate that little bit more. But again I am preaching to the converted here. Now let me tell you why I think they are Great. Call this De Je Vu. I published this article on Friday. On Friday on my journey home just in front of UCT, a Hooligan Sn0t kop litie in a conversion waiting to happen Accent 1300 gets upset with the golf in front of him and swops lanes at a speed that would have made Stig Blush. I ma in the fast lane doing about 80 85 and he nearly takes my front wheel into the barrier. He goes past the white golf with more noise and quicker gears shifts thatthe double clutching will allow. I take off after him to just simply ask him (albeit) in a not so polite way to look around him. Showed him my discourse and continued on my way. Well true to form of his CFR registration (appologies to all those that have) he screams passed me swirving in at me just enough to show his Wind Gat attitude. Now here I decide that he is not going to get far because I know just round the 2 bends there is bumper to bumper stuff. So don't think much of it. I see the golf go past but again don't think much of it. Get to the bumper to bumper and beging Filter mode. Low and behold there in the middle of the traffic lanes is a traffic cop flagging me down. So, pull over and stop, traffic officer walks up to me, and says "sorry sir didn't mean to trouble you, Just thought I'd tell you I saw what happened and I will be dealing with this gentleman appropriately. I looked in my mirror, the golf has little blue lights flicking in the grill and the accent conversion waiting to happen is behind him. You know what !!!!!!! I Love these guys, Yes Corruption is Rife in this country, But someone has got it in for idiots that ruin other peoples lives. Keep your feet on the pegs, and your hat on - Safe riding to all

I'm in a block of flats overlooking Woodbridge Island, a Vulture or two is usually on stand-by on the opposite side of the road, they are NOT here for Taxi food, it is the you's and me's which feed them!!! Yes, there are some really bad Taxi accidents, but number of accidents/commuters carried ratio (I think, no proof or knowledge) is very likely a lot lower than the average motor car, one man/one car accident ratio.

Underground - what a satisfying story. Julie frequently reminds me to chill and just let karma take care of the idiots. But I '''do''' so love it when karma is immediate - waiting for justice is hard on me. Bet you thought the cop was pulling you over for filtering ;-) Website Administrator [http://honeybadger.net Honey Badger IT Services]

So, wait... the cop stopped you to TELL you that he was going to deal with the wind-gat guy? Shouldn't he have been dealing with him, and not talking to you?? How exactly would he deal with the situation AFTER the fact? He has to catch the twerp in the act - following up later is not gonna do much good. Yes, undercover cops, spis, etc. are required when dealing with organized crime, but not the traffic dept. Their priority should be our safety. Undercover traffic cops do not work.

Do you honestly think the jerk would have done what he did to Underground if he could see a traffic cop car? No, he would have held back and nailed some other innocent biker in a place where there are no cops. Now, not only does he have a fine, but he is poep-scared to act out his infantile urges anywhere at all because the cops could be anywhere... Website Administrator [http://honeybadger.net Honey Badger IT Services]

Hey Cloud, nice to see you back on the Forum...you're moving things along nicely I see.:-) The incognito forum cops are watching you.:-) Underground, love your post ,I missed it, must have been typing.

Phew its taken me about 15 minutes to read through his Post nd I've come to realise one thing............. "CHARLES IS A SQUARE!!!" :wink: Andy1200 Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly!!!

Why doesn't it work Steve? I'd really be interested in any stats that are available available. ''If you can dream it you can do it!''

Well, lets play out a couple of scenarios shall we? The situation: A person is speeding along the M3 or De Waal drive or in fact any road in CT. The speedster is spotted by the Ghost Squad. Scenario 1: The Ghost Squad notices the speeder, and calls a marked traffic cop to make the bust. Let's assume there is a traffic cop close by, and can intercept the speeder within 5 to 10 blocks. They catch the speeder. yippee. They fine him. great. But what have they actually achieved except more money? The traffic dept WILLINGLY allowed a person to continue speeding, thus endangering other lives, just so that could fine some one. In this scenario it takes 2 resources to catch one bad driver. Scenario 2: Same situation. Speeder is followed by the Ghost Squad. Ghost Squad calls for back-up to intercept the speeder. The traffic cops race to catch the speeder, but suddenly he slows down to answer his cellphone or light a cigarette or admire the view. Now the marked vehicle has been pulled away from whatever duty he was supposed to be doing, and gets nothing in terms of a bust. Scenario 3: Same situation. Ghost Squad watches speeder racing away. He can't really follow, cause then he'll also be breaking the law. One block before the speedster is stopped, he loses control of his vehicle and kills an innocent pedestrian. I cannot think of a single situation where an unmarked vehicle is better than visible policing. And for those of you who think making people fearful of the law is a good idea - it's not. The law should not be feared, the law should be respected. Peter is you want stats - ask someone else - I don't have any. All I have is my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

Cloud, you have some very valid points. :-) But some form of policing be it uniformed marked or not, is still better than none at all. And if it means that people are going to take that little bit more care because they don't know they are, or are not, being watched - then HEY I am all for it. Especially if it makes the roads a little more safer. The fact that they do have some indications on the vehicles that allow them to (Albeit) not clearly indentify themselves is also great. If you are disobeying the law in whatever way you need to be taught - right from wrong. Yes arresting and driver education etc etc and even the demerit system are all better schemes. But financial defecit is also a means to introduce more police??? If and I already hear you saying "if it really gets to do that and not line some fat cats pocket". Like I said I don't fear the law, I respect it, yes sometimes I too stretch the legs of the RT and break it, but hey I will take the consequences if I get caught. Hats off to them for thinking out of the box. It may not be the ideal situation, but it is different and they are being innovative. Don't get me wrong I respect your opinions, just don't agree with all of them. ;-) Keep your feet on the pegs, and your hat on - Safe riding to all

This secret police thing is too much like tactics employed by the nazi's and the communists and the fascists. Have we learnt nothing from history? It is no good making people live in fear. There have got to be better ways to get people to respect the law.

What do you suggest Cloud?

I think a more effective option is to have an unmarked car with blue flashing lights in the grill or conveniently placed away from a drivers view in a normal driving situation. The reason for this is that if they do see an offense they can deal with it then and there. Put lights on and pull them over. Dont have to use 2 cars and 4 guys to stop 1 car speeding. Having a unmarked car that cant be identified as a cop and cant pull people over is a waste of time and resources to me. Thats my opinion.

Unfortunately I don't have a suggestion. Not a new one anyway. More visible policing. Better patrols. Increased road safety awareness. etc. I can not see how this Ghost Squad can improve the safety on our roads.

Well Cloud, Unfortunately I need to add the old saying: "Tis better to have tried and failed, than never to have tried at all." At least they're doing something - it may not be perfect, but it's better than nothing. There are pro's and con's to any newly implemented concept and while I may share your concern for the New-South-African-Gestapo turning us into a militarian dictatorship I also am acutely aware of the fact that as much as visible policing has actually been increased over the last several years, the impact has been minimal, to the extent where actual crime figures may have been tainted in order to change the appearance of the actual figures to promote a more promising and healthier statistic. The harsh reality is that undercover operations have been in effect in many law enforcement agencies nationally and internationally for years - the risks to the officer are elevated exponentially, but the rewards reaped are far superior than those that are normally achieved by a standard beat cop (read uniformed officer). Did you act in a manner unbecoming a sweet innocent school-boy when the teacher was in or out of the classroom? The only real way to know it doesn't work, is to try it.

Cloud, one for you...Perhaps they wanted a Ghost squad as it was getting a bit much, all these photo's of official cars parked in disabled bays or in a shady spot during working hours with empty KFC boxes (no more Nandos) and Coke cans alongside them!:-)

Law enforcement should be in the realm of the police - not the traffic dept. and i do not beleive visible policing has increased n recent years. If anything it's probably declined. Does anyone know where we can find out how many people work for the traffic dept/police. It would be interesting to see if it is increasing or decreasing.

You got me there Andy. And proof that your observation is right is the fact that '''I am proud of it!''' Website Administrator [http://honeybadger.net Honey Badger IT Services]

Um ... which one? :-) Legislation allowed Metropolitan areas to establish police agencies which have 3 statutory functions, namely traffic policing, crime prevention and municipal by-law enforcement, however for crime investigation they hand over their cases to the national body, which is the SAPS. Marked and unmarked patrols are part of the services provided (2002 studies showed Metro Police to Civilian ratios of 1:2,961 and SAPS 1:409 in the Western Cape), and at the moment international advice is being received on structures that need to be in place before the 2010 Soccer World Cup, so numbers will be increasing. My personal opinion is that Zille is doing commendable job of keeping the pressure on the Metro services to follow international standards and procedures. (Senior police officials that I've spoken to reckon she's a devil to work with but she gets results! :-) ) I also believe that anyone with a louder exhaust than mine should be locked up! ''If you can dream it you can do it!''

I think he's trying to communicate with me, but I can't understand a thing he is saying. :D All I know is I haven't heard one decent reason why the Ghost Squad is a good idea.

Increasing. ''If you can dream it you can do it!''

My 2c, I think it is at least some positive action taken. We all cry out that dealing with the taxis should be first and foremost. Surely these guys breaking the law will also be targeted, or am I naive? Even in an ultra ordered country like Germany they have unmarked cars, and it works. I would like to believe that there will be real benefit to us all.

But we're not an ultra-ordered country like Germany. Not even close. OK - I have thought of one benefit of the Ghost Squad, they can at least tail Taxis and other suspiciously behaving people. But I wonder if this is the jurisdiction of the Traffic Dept.

Well lets think here is a taxi Traffic? UUUMMM Yes. So they are ....Traffic Police.. Yes they have jurisdiction. As with all other moving violations, ohhhh and by the way if you read my incident the cars they are using do have blue lights conspicuously hidden and the officers in them are wearing full uniform. So if they get past you and can block off a road they have the power and authority to pull you off just like a normal traffic officer can. So whilst they are hidden from obvious view they are however still able to conduct normal duties. This then proves that whilst idiots NOT present company included, will act like idiots when they do not see obvious law enforcements, they may after a couple of altercations be less inclined in future. Keep your feet on the pegs, and your hat on - Safe riding to all